Standard Quo Vadis?

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Handsome
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Handsome » 23 Oct 2014 07:52

HenningK wrote:ich hätte jetzt erwartet dass er nach den ländern 35 siege rhinos aufdeckt :D

sein sideboard finde ich ein wenig shaky. ;)
Du meinst so?

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Nippy
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Nippy » 23 Oct 2014 08:06

Handsome wrote:
HenningK wrote:ich hätte jetzt erwartet dass er nach den ländern 35 siege rhinos aufdeckt :D

sein sideboard finde ich ein wenig shaky. ;)
Du meinst so?
Die Liste ist ja total anfällig gegen Wingmate Roc.

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Van Phanel
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Van Phanel » 23 Oct 2014 08:42

Stimmt. Dafür hat man doch die SB Duneblasts
Take your time.

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HenningK
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by HenningK » 23 Oct 2014 09:43

haha nice :)

denke 3 duneblast wäre sicherer:>

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Handsome
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Handsome » 24 Oct 2014 09:40

Btw – Patrick Chapin re: Standard:
Spoiler:
A format can have a best deck and still be dynamic.

Besides, how good the games are to play is also a completely different question.

Khans of Tarkir Standard is legitimately incredible. This format might seriously be one of the greatest Standard formats of all-time. It's not that there are 42 tier 1 decks. That's not what makes a format good (nor possible).

The games in this format are so good! This isn't to say people don't get mana screwed, because they do sometimes. The mana is pretty great though. Everyone has access to great manabases, whether they want consistency (like Temples and tri-lands) or speed (fetchlands and painlands), yet mana isn't so broken that all the decks blur together (like vivid lands + Reflecting Pool or fetchlands + shocklands).

The games themselves involve tons of meaningful decisions that actually impact the game. It's not that tons of complexity has been dropped on the game bombarding us with bookkeeping tasks. It's that the decision trees have been pruned and cultivated, so that both players are making tons of decisions that actually matter.

— Do you scry this card to the bottom?

— Attack them or their planeswalker?

— What order do you play your land in?

— What card do you take with Thoughtseize?

— Courser of Kruphix gives both players so much information, so what do you do with that info?

— When do you play your fetchlands and Temples while you have a Courser out?

— What do you play turn 3, the Rabblemaster or the Mantis Rider?

— Which planeswalker ability do you use this turn?

— Which mode on that Charm?

— Saving mana for Knuckleblade's abilities or casting another creature?

— Play around Abzan Charm and Utter End, or Murderous Cut and End Hostilities?

— How many creatures attack, and how many stay home?

— Is it worth throwing away a creature to trigger raid?

— If they make a losing attack, they have to have Abzan Charm, so how do you block?

— Since they could have Abzan Charm, you can't block, but maybe they are just bluffing since they know you know this, so now what?

— Is their morph a Rattleclaw Mystic or a Sagu Mauler?

— They have a Perilous Vault out. Now what?

— Should you use your one counter on that, or save it?

— Which two cards do you keep with Dig Through Time?

— How much do you delve for, now that you mention it?

— What's your sideboard plan this game? Now, how about the next game, after they saw that sequence of cards?

— They play Jace's Ingenuity, so can you make them discard to handsize by not casting anything for a few turns?

— How do you want to fight that Ashcloud Phoenix?

— How do you want to use that Polukranos, World Eater?

The list literally goes on and on, and we haven't even gotten to the deckbuilding decisions, which are also very deep and interesting. I can't remember ever playing a format with this much depth in the areas of the game that have the broadest appeal. Don't get me wrong, it was a blast grinding out the resource management battles years ago that capitalized on the imbalance in understood Magic strategy, but players are not so innocent now.

Besides, the old days have a less compelling distribution of decision relevance. It used to be that the most important decisions were so important, you would battle for a long time making relatively easy decisions (once you were good enough to know the right answer), and look for someone to make one wrong and lose (or eventually variance breaks the tie).

Now, the decisions are so much murkier and speculative, you can't always know the right play, even in retrospect. As a result, everyone is making more plays that are less than perfect, however, they are not so punishing as to outright lose you the game when you are on the wrong side of it. You lose percentage and the game goes on.

Mirror matches have often been less than great in Magic's history. Blue mirror matches have often been pretty solid, but playing non-Blue mirror matches can be a very harrowing experience. This format though, even the Abzan mirror, the Mardu midrange mirror, the G/R Monsters mirror, the games are pretty good.

My mind is seriously blown. Maybe it's just a phase and this format will get bad in a few weeks. I don't know. I mean, maybe it's randomly on the high end of qualities of format, but maybe it is indicative of a major step forward in Magic design. It has happened a number of times before:

— Alpha

— Ice Age

— Mirage

— Tempest

— Ravnica

— Zendikar

— Innistrad

— Invasion

I haven't been going to that many Grand Prix lately, partially because formats get old. This format, however, this format has me looking at the schedule to find every possible Standard GP and Open Series event I might be able to hit. The format is just too awesome.

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fabfoe
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by fabfoe » 25 Oct 2014 01:22

Patrick Chapin saß R 14 neben mir und hat die beste magic related speech gehalten, als sein Gegner ihn fragte, ob er nach einem Loss in der Runde wirklich (endlich) out of contention ist; es ging in etwa:
Back in The days it was an Honor to Even participate in the Pro Tour. we would walk four and a half miles to the site in Sibira - bare feet - to play without using sleeves.


dabei wirkte er so ernst - priceless...

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Schmirglie
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Schmirglie » 13 Nov 2014 10:55

Man kann dem Format echt nicht vorwerfen, dass kein Platz für Innovationen da wäre. Die MOCS wurden jetzt von einem straighten RG-Aggro gewonnen. Ich würde ja auch gerne mal da einsteigen, aber ich weiß nicht wie. Zuerst dachte ich an Mardu (eher Midrange-Control mit mehr Planeswalkern und Removal statt Token), weil Mardu-Liste in letzter Zeit generell bei Dailies oft gut abschneiden und letztens das PTQ-Finale auch Mardu gegen Mardu war, aber bei den MOCS war von dem Deck wirklich gar nix zu sehen... und auch kein UWR in den Top8. Ich glaube ich versuchs mal mit Abzhan Aggro. Ich glaube das Deck hat auch den Vorteil, dass es einfach gut ist und auch flexibel aufs Meta eingestellt werden kann. Ich würde halt gerne was kaufen, was ich dann auch länger spielen kann. Im Zweifelsfall kann ich ja immer noch auf Midrange umsteigen, aber ich hab echt kein Bock auf Caryatiden-Mirrors...
Nur eine Frage: Erklär mir mal bitte einer Sorin vs Anafenza vs Courser, was muss man denn zocken?

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Nippy
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Nippy » 13 Nov 2014 11:05

Abzan Aggro ist denke ich eins der wenigen Decks, in denen Sorin wirklich gut ist, weil er hier ideal genutzt wird.

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flrn
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by flrn » 13 Nov 2014 11:08

Wo find ich denn die MOCS top8 Decklisten?

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xovah
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by xovah » 13 Nov 2014 11:11

Ich weiss, wotc seite ist unbenutzbar, aber ich wiederhole mich: die decklisten findet man tatsächlich sehr leicht^^
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2014-11-12

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Ashraf
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Ashraf » 13 Nov 2014 11:18

Surkamp war Top 8, ist aber quarters nach 5 min gebustet

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Schmirglie
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Schmirglie » 13 Nov 2014 12:05

Nippy wrote:Abzan Aggro ist denke ich eins der wenigen Decks, in denen Sorin wirklich gut ist, weil er hier ideal genutzt wird.
Im Mardu-Tokendeck sieht er mir auch ganz passabel aus. Ich glaub man muss halt lernen, wann man mal nen Vampir machen muss. Eventuell werd ich mich da schon mal vertun.

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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by ovid » 02 Jan 2015 19:00

. Siege Rhino holds this deck together. It's a defensive and offensive threat that simply can't be contained. Siege Rhino is the Lebron James of Standard.
--BBD
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ovid war einer der Auslöser, die zur Gründung dieses Forums geführt haben und hatte den ersten Beitrag ;)

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Nippy
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Nippy » 02 Jan 2015 20:53

ovid wrote:. Siege Rhino holds this deck together. It's a defensive and offensive threat that simply can't be contained. Siege Rhino is the Lebron James of Standard.
--BBD
Ich lolierte :D

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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by ovid » 09 Jan 2015 22:15

paulo vitor damo da rosa wrote: It seems like you're arguing two different things... You and Brad think the format is good because there are a lot of deckbuilding and sideboarding decisions. Efro thinks it's bad because your decisions in game don't matter as much. Can't both be right? You clearly value different things in a format, so you have a different opinion on how good this format is. 

It seems to me like you and Brad are using "there are tons of decisions regarding SB and deckbuilding" to mean "the games are not high variance" but that is not a logical conclusion, it's definitely possible for it to be both (and I think in this case it is).
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Chickenfood
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Chickenfood » 09 Jan 2015 22:58

Wo hat er das geschrieben?

Wann hat Efro eigentlich das letzte mal nicht wegen irgendwas rumgeheult?

Und ich finde nicht das in diesem Format SBen besonders anspruchsvoll ist. Es ist besonders wichtig ja, aber anspruchsvoll ist es nicht.

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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by ovid » 09 Jan 2015 23:10

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ovid war einer der Auslöser, die zur Gründung dieses Forums geführt haben und hatte den ersten Beitrag ;)

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valtl
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by valtl » 10 Jan 2015 08:19

Chickenfood wrote: Wann hat Efro eigentlich das letzte mal nicht wegen irgendwas rumgeheult
Als er sich für die Player championship qualifiziert hat, dass hat er sich ja brav verdient. Allerdings hat er sich dann sofort beschwert, dass die Sessel unbequem sind und es zum Ausgleich nur deswegen so heiß ist, damit er sich nicht aufs spielen konzentrieren kann...

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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by ovid » 10 Jan 2015 09:01

Chickenfood wrote:Wo hat er das geschrieben?

Wann hat Efro eigentlich das letzte mal nicht wegen irgendwas rumgeheult?

Und ich finde nicht das in diesem Format SBen besonders anspruchsvoll ist. Es ist besonders wichtig ja, aber anspruchsvoll ist es nicht.
Ist ein Kommentar beim BBD Artikel
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ovid war einer der Auslöser, die zur Gründung dieses Forums geführt haben und hatte den ersten Beitrag ;)

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Handsome
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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Handsome » 10 Jan 2015 11:17

Lustig daran find ich vor allem, dass Efro die Spiele für null skillintensiv hält, aber sein Video-Feature-Match beim GP Denver komplett weggeschmissen hat. :D

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Re: Standard Quo Vadis?

Post by Schmirglie » 26 Mar 2015 16:13

So, was wird denn jetzt aus Standard? Muss man einfach die PT abwarten? Ich frage mich ganz ernsthaft, warum eigentlich keiner mehr Abzan mit Peitsche spielt. Klar, ist nicht suoer gegen Ugin, aber sonst? Vor allem gegen die roten Decks muss das Deck doch pornös gut sein.
Ich bin mal auf das SCG-Open am Wochenende gespannt, das wird wohl ein erster Ansatzpunkt fürs Meta.

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